Textpad guys blind to goodness of FTP Save-As capability?

[Brikface]

I've looked over past threads here dealing with FTP capability within TextPad and was surprised to see the people suggesting this feature get blown off. They were told to use a third-party prog like WebDrive, or write their own batch files using the DOS FTP utility, etc.,. But far and away the best solution would be a capability within TextPad allowing one to use Save As to write a file to a directory on an FTP server (typically a machine running both a webserver and ftp server, so you can FTP files into directories under your HTML docroot).

Why do the TextPad developers fail to see the advantages of this? It is a gaping hole in an otherwise excellent text editor. In fact, I don't see why it doesn't work as is. In TextPad under XP if you choose File/Save As you get a dialogbox titled "Save As" and down the left side are icons labeled "My Recent Documents", "Desktop", "My Documents", "My Computer" and "My Network". If you click "My Network" you will see any FTP sites that you have configured using the XP "Web Folders" capability. If you click in to any of these FTP mappings the large area that occupies most of the dialogbox goes white-- it doesn't show the FTP folders, even if you properly logged on using the Windows Explorer interface. If Textpad could just recognize and write to the server directories at this point, all would be well and TextPad would be complete.

A number of lesser editors have this feature (EditPlus, PsPad). When will TextPad wake up to it?

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BF

[bveldkamp]

So, what exactly is it you're missing in netdrive/webdrive? It not only allows Textpad to save to an ftp server, but in fact *ALL* applications can do that.
And even if TP would implement this feature, what's next? FTP functionality in PhotoShop, Word, Acrobat?
Besides, there are already so may FTP solutions that work perfectly, why would anyone need yet another one?

Personally, I hope TP will never implement this feature, and instead aim their programming efforts at what TP is made for: Text editing.

Regards, Berend

[Brikface]

Personally, I hope TP will never implement this feature, and instead aim their programming efforts at what TP is made for: Text editing.

Regards, Berend

Berend, the text editor occupies a unique position for programmers, web developers, etc., They are using the text editor so much that any functions normally done via an OS or 3rd party interface which can be reasonably incorporated into the editor interface represent a real gain in efficiency. The fewer windows you have to open/close/minimize/maximize, the fewer mouseclicks/keystrokes you need for a given task, the fewer apps you need to install and keep updated-- it all adds up to serious savings in time/effort.

I mean, why bother, for instance, to have a Help->Help Topics menutree right in TextPad itself when the user can simply have a dedicated TextPad Help icon on his desktop that launches the chm file? Let TP focus on what TP was made for-- text editing, and let the compiled Help do what it does...

Not. Obviously, it is an efficiency to have the menutree right there in TextPad instead of forcing the user to minimize TextPad and any other open windows to uncover the separate TextPad Help desktop icon every time he needs to look something up. Your saying "So, what exactly is it you're missing in netdrive/webdrive?" is exactly equivalent to someone saying "So, what exactly is missing in a TextPad Help launchable only from a desktop icon?". No, nothing is missing. It's just a matter of saving the user from 10,000 tiny inconveniences over a year of TextPad use.

I haven't seen netdrive/webdrive. Perhaps it is the equivalent of "mapping a network drive" for FTP, complete with drive letter that TextPad can save files straight to. If that's the case it would be pretty close in terms of convenience to built-in TextPad FTP. Even so, I'd rather have the built-in functionality. Why bother with/pay for yet another app and the system resources it eats (perhaps it stays "memory resident" all the time, while the typical user would only need it during text editing sessions). FTP capability is an obvious need in a modern editor, so why not get to it instead of messing with other apps/vendors? And if the TextPad people don't feel sufficiently motivated by that argument, how's this: all competing editors will surely have this function and eventually TextPad users will flock to them cuz it's just plain ridiculous to keep messing around with 3rd party apps to do something the editor can do perfectly well.

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BF

[bveldkamp]

Berend, the text editor occupies a unique position for programmers, web developers, etc., They are using the text editor so much that any functions normally done via an OS or 3rd party interface which can be reasonably incorporated into the editor interface represent a real gain in efficiency. The fewer windows you have to open/close/minimize/maximize, the fewer mouseclicks/keystrokes you need for a given task, the fewer apps you need to install and keep updated-- it all adds up to serious savings in time/effort.

Sorry, but I don't see why a texteditor is unique for web developers. Most web developers would at least need an image editor as well, and some also a pdf creator. Not to mention flash / applet / other developers who have their own need

I mean, why bother, for instance, to have a Help->Help Topics menutree right in TextPad itself when the user can simply have a dedicated TextPad Help icon on his desktop that launches the chm file? Let TP focus on what TP was made for-- text editing, and let the compiled Help do what it does...

Not. Obviously, it is an efficiency to have the menutree right there in TextPad instead of forcing the user to minimize TextPad and any other open windows to uncover the separate TextPad Help desktop icon every time he needs to look something up. Your saying "So, what exactly is it you're missing in netdrive/webdrive?" is exactly equivalent to someone saying "So, what exactly is missing in a TextPad Help launchable only from a desktop icon?". No, nothing is missing. It's just a matter of saving the user from 10,000 tiny inconveniences over a year of TextPad use.

Textpad uses an application provided by Windows (hh.exe) to display the help file. And since there's an option to define your own Tools in textpad, I don't see a difference. IOW, if TP didn't provide a Help menu, I could always create a custom tool that opens the hlep file.

I haven't seen netdrive/webdrive. Perhaps it is the equivalent of "mapping a network drive" for FTP, complete with drive letter that TextPad can save files straight to. If that's the case it would be pretty close in terms of convenience to built-in TextPad FTP. Even so, I'd rather have the built-in functionality. Why bother with/pay for yet another app and the system resources it eats (perhaps it stays "memory resident" all the time, while the typical user would only need it during text editing sessions). FTP capability is an obvious need in a modern editor, so why not get to it instead of messing with other apps/vendors?

NetDrive is free.
IMO, but maybe that's old-fashioned, it's better to have a number of (small) applications that each do one thing right, instead of one application that provides everything but the kitchen sink.
If TP would provide FTP, it would also be in memory, even for people who don't use it. Besides, it's not that hard to start/stop Netdrive (or any other FTP app).

And if the TextPad people don't feel sufficiently motivated by that argument, how's this: all competing editors will surely have this function and eventually TextPad users will flock to them cuz it's just plain ridiculous to keep messing around with 3rd party apps to do something the editor can do perfectly well.

That sounds as if most TP users want FTP, but according to your first message, that's not the case. It's plain ridiculous to mess with an application that provides all these extra function one doesn't need, if there's millions of other apps around that already do a fine job

Regards, Berend

[s_reynisson]

See over here for some more pros and cons. The main concern with FTP today seems to be security, more and more companies are simply shutting FTP down and some are taking up sFTP. TP users in these forums don't seem that concerned with FTP, see the "Relative rankings of every enhancement suggestion" over here, scroll way down for the latest version. HTH

[Brikface]

Berend, the text editor occupies a unique position for programmers, web developers, etc., They are using the text editor so much that any functions normally done via an OS or 3rd party interface which can be reasonably incorporated into the editor interface represent a real gain in efficiency. The fewer windows you have to open/close/minimize/maximize, the fewer mouseclicks/keystrokes you need for a given task, the fewer apps you need to install and keep updated-- it all adds up to serious savings in time/effort.

Sorry, but I don't see why a texteditor is unique for web developers. Most web developers would at least need an image editor as well, and some also a pdf creator. Not to mention flash / applet / other developers who have their own need

Come come now, the texteditor is unique. Typically a web developer will take care of the first big phases of a new site exclusively on his/her own machine, maybe not even using TextPad, but when it comes to deploying and maintaining (that is, reshuffling/tweaking existing files as they sit on a remote server) the developer will all but live in TextPad and it's precisely then that built-in FTP would be a big efficiency. No other app, not even the image editor, comes close in usage at this time. By that time most of the images/applets/flash bits and other trimmings have been finalized and they're just more files swept up in the FTP tide.

I mean, why bother, for instance, to have a Help->Help Topics menutree right in TextPad itself when the user can simply have a dedicated TextPad Help icon on his desktop that launches the chm file? Let TP focus on what TP was made for-- text editing, and let the compiled Help do what it does...

Not. Obviously, it is an efficiency to have the menutree right there in TextPad instead of forcing the user to minimize TextPad and any other open windows to uncover the separate TextPad Help desktop icon every time he needs to look something up. Your saying "So, what exactly is it you're missing in netdrive/webdrive?" is exactly equivalent to someone saying "So, what exactly is missing in a TextPad Help launchable only from a desktop icon?". No, nothing is missing. It's just a matter of saving the user from 10,000 tiny inconveniences over a year of TextPad use.

Textpad uses an application provided by Windows (hh.exe) to display the help file. And since there's an option to define your own Tools in textpad, I don't see a difference. IOW, if TP didn't provide a Help menu, I could always create a custom tool that opens the hlep file.

How many TP customers would the good people at Helios have if the product appealed only to those able and willing to create custom tools for interface elements? Ten, fifteen percent of current number of customers?

I haven't seen netdrive/webdrive. Perhaps it is the equivalent of "mapping a network drive" for FTP, complete with drive letter that TextPad can save files straight to. If that's the case it would be pretty close in terms of convenience to built-in TextPad FTP. Even so, I'd rather have the built-in functionality. Why bother with/pay for yet another app and the system resources it eats (perhaps it stays "memory resident" all the time, while the typical user would only need it during text editing sessions). FTP capability is an obvious need in a modern editor, so why not get to it instead of messing with other apps/vendors?

NetDrive is free.
IMO, but maybe that's old-fashioned, it's better to have a number of (small) applications that each do one thing right, instead of one application that provides everything but the kitchen sink.
If TP would provide FTP, it would also be in memory, even for people who don't use it. Besides, it's not that hard to start/stop Netdrive (or any other FTP app).

What's the difference between Netdrive and Webdrive? I notice Webdrive isn't free. That makes me think there is some kinda real efficiency gain with Webdrive, which means the free Netdrive ain't so efficient/convenient after all... On the splitter vs. lumper question, I'm in-between. I'm against uncontrolled bloat (for instance, I was among the first to urge the top Mozilla people to break out a lean, mean browser from their humungous suite-- we know it today as "Firefox"). But when a functionality is so universally useful and a matter of competitive survival, as this is, I say go for it..."Besides, it's not that hard to start/stop Netdrive (or any other FTP app).". Hard in what way? Hard so it requires an advanced degree? No. Hard because you're an industrious programmer/developer working at high speed and turning a silly dedicated-use app on and off a thousand times a day can in itself give you carpal tunnel syndrome? Yes... On the memory issue, yes, FTP stuff would be in memory while TP runs, although not necessarily for those who don't use it. I'm pretty sure it could be implemented so that no memory is involved until first FTP use in a session. And then, when TP is closed, so is the FTP memory-resident stuff, unlike netdrive/windrive.

And if the TextPad people don't feel sufficiently motivated by that argument, how's this: all competing editors will surely have this function and eventually TextPad users will flock to them cuz it's just plain ridiculous to keep messing around with 3rd party apps to do something the editor can do perfectly well.

That sounds as if most TP users want FTP, but according to your first message, that's not the case. It's plain ridiculous to mess with an application that provides all these extra function one doesn't need, if there's millions of other apps around that already do a fine job

I dunno, as many people brought up built-in FTP as shot it down. If s_reynisson's poll data is correct, though, you have a point. Somehow I think more would want it if they thought it through, and I reckon they'll begin to realize it en masse over the next year or so.

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BF

[talleyrand]

Come come now, the texteditor is unique. Typically a web developer will take care of the first big phases of a new site exclusively on his/her own machine, maybe not even using TextPad, but when it comes to deploying and maintaining (that is, reshuffling/tweaking existing files as they sit on a remote server) the developer will all but live in TextPad and it's precisely then that built-in FTP would be a big efficiency. No other app, not even the image editor, comes close in usage at this time. By that time most of the images/applets/flash bits and other trimmings have been finalized and they're just more files swept up in the FTP tide.

Ick, I would hope to the high heavens that people are not changing code on a production site with TextPad or anything that yields non-reproducible efforts. For small things, sure it could be useful to have a built-in FTP but as a rule I build things in my local environment, test them, push them into our version control program, and then pull from version control into our dev/QA/production systems. It might take an extra step but the time saved from having to figure out "what's different" between them all (ohhh, that change! Yeah I forgot I fixed that in production. How'd I do that again...) is incalculable.

Personally, I don't see much of a benefit for a built in FTP client but I'm open to the possibility that I am in the minority.

[Brikface]

Ick, I would hope to the high heavens that people are not changing code on a production site with TextPad or anything that yields non-reproducible efforts.

Come come now, Talleyrand. What makes you think TextPad can only be used outside versioned production environments? For those of us unlucky enough to have employers or clients blind to the virtues of an all *nix pipeline, there's no better choice than TP as the editor in the local prod environment. Check in and out can be done locally (yes there are Windoze version control systems and yes there are TP addons that expose it to VCS), and a TP FTP function would come in very handy right after that step.

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BF

[bveldkamp]

Besides, it's not that hard to start/stop Netdrive (or any other FTP app).". Hard in what way? Hard so it requires an advanced degree? No. Hard because you're an industrious programmer/developer working at high speed and turning a silly dedicated-use app on and off a thousand times a day can in itself give you carpal tunnel syndrome? Yes...

Give me a break... If you are so dependent on an application to have to turn it on/off 1000 times a day, you'd leave it running and don't care about the memory issue.
And I agree with talleyrand, even for very small websites (about 5 pages) I keep a local copy to work on and when I'm finished I copy the entire site over. And you don't need to have access to a *nix box to do that.

Regards, Berend

[talleyrand]

As an aside, I love my windows based version management system. Couple it with an outstanding explorer integration and I've been happily keeping track of my coding.

BF, clearly you are passionate about getting FTP built into TP. Thus far, I have not seen any argument that has convinced me built in FTP is a need for TextPad. I see options to allow a transparent drive mapping external to the editor environment which is a far more useful and flexible solution than reinventing the wheel in my opinion.

[bwoodring]

IMO... adding FTP functionality into TextPad is a boneheaded idea. I doubt that 5% of TextPad customers would use it regularly, and it's simply not in the application mandate. What happens when FTP goes out of style? (it is already happening) Do they need to add sFTP? WebDAV? YourFavoriteRepository? Why should they bother? A program like NetDrive can do the work of mapping network resources to the local filesystem, and a program like TextPad can do what it does best, edit and save text files. Using a program like NetDrive makes so much more sense too, since it gives you a simple technique for saving your work to the server in ALL of the tools you use for work.

[Brikface]

IMO... adding FTP functionality into TextPad is a boneheaded idea. I doubt that 5% of TextPad customers would use it regularly, and it's simply not in the application mandate. What happens when FTP goes out of style? (it is already happening) Do they need to add sFTP? WebDAV? YourFavoriteRepository? Why should they bother? A program like NetDrive can do the work of mapping network resources to the local filesystem, and a program like TextPad can do what it does best, edit and save text files. Using a program like NetDrive makes so much more sense too, since it gives you a simple technique for saving your work to the server in ALL of the tools you use for work.

Beats me why otherwise bright people see it as you do. To repeat, why have a 3rd-party app to buy/maintain/upgrade and open/close when the functionality can very easily be built into the text editor? Many people rarely use FTP (or any other file transfer method) for anything other than text files. It's so obvious that having it built into the editor is a big efficiency. Also, as noted above several times, it's wasteful to keep something like netdrive going as a process when one only needs FTP during editing sessions... Three people have responded in this thread and three people have failed to dent any of these arguments.

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bf

[MudGuard]

On my web pages, there are (program used for the files given in ())
- some html/CSS/Javascript files (Textpad)
- some vector graphics (Inkscape)
- some pixel graphics (Gimp)
- some icons (Irvanview)
- some photos (Gimp/Neat Image)
- some PDFs (OpenOffice/PDF995)
- some zip files (WinZip)
- some class and jar files (Netbeans)
- some bld files (my very own file format, my very own program)

(there might be others which I can't remember right now).

Now imagine I wouldn't use ONE ftp program but the FTP commands of each of the ten (Textpad, Inkscape, Gimp, Irvanview, NeatImage, OpenOffice, PDF995, WinZip, Netbeans, myOwn) - if they existed.

For security reasons, I change the password for my ftp accesses quite often.

With your solution (each program has its own FTP commands) I'd have to change settings in 10 (or more) programs (for several ftp servers) ...

No thanks, no FTP commands in each program - I definitely prefer to have a separate FTP solution.

[Brikface]

MudGuard, don't fall into the fallacy that all, or even most, users are like you. I work with a loose network of programmers and all of us, when working from home on Windows machines, basically need FTP capability only to throw text files (typically Java, C and Perl source code) from our drives to remote sites. Compilation is done on the remote boxes. We are not web developers throwing around graphics, Flash files, audio files, etc,. A dedicated program like Webdrive that sits there round-the-clock is a waste of active RAM and just another program to buy and maintain. For us, FTP ability from within the text editor is far more attractive.

Yeah, there are lots of people like you for whom a separate FTP solution is better. But there are plenty like us for whom a Textpad-FTP would be better. Let's say we represent 20% of paying TextPad customers. Does Helios want to lose 20% of its base because 80% wouldn't use the feature? I don't think so.

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Bf

[Drxenos]

A dedicated program like Webdrive that sits there round-the-clock is a waste of active RAM and just another program to buy and maintain. For us, FTP ability from within the text editor is far more attractive.

Your arguments are specious at best. You think the RAM requires of an FTP client will suddenly disappear if it is integrated into another program? Besides, as cheap and abundant as RAM is these days, are you really that strapped for memory?